Jason: How long have you been performing in drag?

Ginger: My first public apearance was in 1969. And people in Tulsa may remember, it was called the Gala Club. It was down on 11th street & it was a halloween ball. Friends persuaded me to do it.

Jason: I imagine things have changed quite a bit in your career.

Ginger: Oh, big time, big time. At the time that I first started most of the talent that was done, nobody danced, or worked as hard as they do now; it was mostly apearance. It was a time of "Big Hair" that I still wear now. I'm in a time warp, but I won't give it up, because, basicly it's a trademark. Most people were just very well dressed, everybody was gowned, the hair was very fancy. Ballads were big, oh, there were fast numbers but they still did them in gowns, nobody moved like they do today. It was just a whole different thing, the beauty and glitz was the thing.

Jason: More elaborate?

Ginger: Yes, yes.

Jason: So, your first time to perform was in Tulsa, at The Gala?

Ginger: Yes. It was at 11th street, there was another little bar next to it, it was very small, a liquor bar, and then there was a beer bar next to it, and I can't remember what the name of it was, it's been so long, but that was the first one.

Jason: Did you live in Tulsa at that time?

Ginger: No, I've never lived in Tulsa. I had some friends that lived there, and a bunch of us decided we'd go. I was so intimidated by all of it that I thought if I'd go out of town it would be a little easier for me to do it.

Jason: How was the bar secene at that time, in 1969?

Ginger: Well, you know, I've often said, it's like going to the state fair. Times change but the people don't. The clothes do, and it was a fun, party time, of course, the music was of a completely different time and era, but basically people were doing the same thing- drinking, partying, dancing. It was fun, it was, just a good time. I don't remember, personally, the drugs being as influential to people's lives then, as they are now. It was mostly "Let's get drunk tonight" and that was basically what went on. Very similar to today, just everybody looks different, that's all.

Jason: Was the Drag community as powerful then as it is now?

Ginger: It wasn't as big. At that particular time, there was a law in the state, that when you performed in drag, you had to wear three articles of men's clothing, somewhere underneath your gown. You had to do something underneath, to be legal, if not, you could be arrested. They raided places a lot more often then, at that time it was not liqour by the drink, it was bring your own bottle. Often there were police raids, and when that happened- in most clubs there was a buzzer you pushed to get in, and if there was a raid, they would push the buzzer & blink lights. Everyone would leave the dance floor, because it was illegal to dance & drink. So, you would go sit, & by the time they come in, everyone would be sitting & talking. When they left everyone was back up & dancing again.



Jason: So were drag shows very common then?

Ginger: There usually was one bar per city that had a show. In Oklahoma City at the time, it was Lee's Lounge, and that's were I first appeared in Oklahoma City. When i first worked there, they did thier shows on Sunday nights, and they had guest bands that would come in. My first night, they had a black band that did all the Motown Music- soul music. When you put your music on- at that time it was records, this band would play background music for you, so it gave you that feeling that you were almost singing live. It was a very small work area, & you basicly stood there & lip synced. But there was always a full house every time there was a show.

Jason: So, was Lee's Lounge owned by Arnold Lee?

Ginger: Yes, Arnold Lee owned that. And he had if for quite some time, then that closed, and he turned it into the Villa Royal- he was going to make a 'straight type' tourist club & it was beautiful- it was done in that period when everything was done in red velvet with high back chairs, & drapes. Tony (Sinclair) was his host. Then he had people from out of town come in that were names in drag & work. It went over for quite some time, it was very nice. I would work there & go back and forth to Tulsa. There was a club, I couldn't tell you the name now- it was right downtown, didn't last long, but it was a show bar & if I wasn't working here I'd go there & do shows. There I met a black queen that pretty much ran the booking of thier shows, his name was Koko. He was tall as I am, probably 6' 5", very heavy, and he would dance- he was a dancer. And I started working with him, & we'd work in straight clubs in Oklahoma City. We worked at- well, it's a gas station now, at 23rd & Portland- The Tempo Club. It was a straight club, and we'd work there, again, with a band & lip sync. It was fun. It was an interesting time. Much different from today, completely.

Jason: Okay, the very first time you performed in Tulsa, what number did you perform?

Ginger: Oh- I'm probably still doing the number... I never give up anything- To tell you the truth, I did "Somewhere" by the Supremes.